Changing from outright return to visitation

[NoansDad]

Friday I changed my Hague application from an outright return of Noan from Brasil to just visitation. I am 100% certain pursuing Noan's outright return is an absolute waste of time. I am 99% certain pursuing visitation will be a waste of time as well, as I apparently get the same judge who has already refused me visitation rights to my son both on Skype and if I was to go to Brasil.

So lets see how unfair and unjust this process can still be when dealing with Brazil. Lets see how committed the State Department is to even assisting my son getting to come and visit his Dad.

I have told the State Department and the BCA of really my only one condition, I will not be setting foot in Brasil UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Simple enough, any negotiation and discussion regarding the visitation of my son can occur on Skype.

[dmdaven2]

Hmmm...I'm starting to think we should all go down to Brazil and just raise hell...chances of getting our children back that way are also 99.5% a waste of time as well...but at least we'll cause and uproar...

No Justice...No Peace??

[Nicole's Dad]

Simon,

Whatever you do, don't let your anger get the best of you. If the Brazilians see you are angry, they WILL shy away from helping you. I for one learned that the hard way. As soon as I learned to stay calm, they seem to draw near allowing us to discuss. Yoy are going to have to make some concessions contrary to what we all know is the right thing to do which is an outright return. Get what you deserve to have but make sure you keep it all about Noan. Not yourself or your ex. I know she is being difficult and outrageous but you are on your last attempt at getting something. If you need, I can get you or the federal attorney you are dealing with in touch with the federal attorney that helped me in Manaus. He fully understands the process and he understands the Hague obligations Brazil has. That's why he stepped in. Yes I got lucky. He is one of the good guys. Contrary to what some of the people on this forum think, I firmly believe with all my heart that my faith is what made this happen. All I'm going to say is that when you sell out to a higher power and authority than yourself, you will be redeemed. Accept whatever his will is for you and Noan and move forward with YOUR life. Hard for some to believe but I do. Without it, I would not be where I am today with Nicole. And by the way. She very well may be moving back to the States with me in the near future. Her mother and I are discussing that very subject now. Good luck and if you need anything, call me but you have to lose the anger and the bitterness. That alone will set YOU free. 

[SageDad]

I hope this new strategy has better results for you.

It's worth noting for others that you don't have to abandon requesting a child's return to request visitation.  You can request visitation and return simultaneously though without a return order visitation would need to occur in Brazil.

I personally put very little faith in visitation orders.  I see plenty of cases where they fail to work even when both parents live in the same town if the "custodial parent" chooses not to comply with them.

I fear what you may find is that, once you've consented to the change in your son's habitual residence you may or may not get an order allowing you visitation which may or may not be enforced.  With regards to both the order being issued or enforced I'm not optimistic that they will be.  As if that's not bad enough, the Brazilian court will then have free reign to issue a valid custody order (now that they jurisdiction) where they give the abducting mother full custody and order you to pay child support according to some imputed income they decide to make up for you.  Then, even though US government agencies didn't do a damn thing to help you bring your son home or even see him, they will come after you guns drawn to arrest you, freeze bank accounts, seize assets and suspend driving/professional licenses in order to collect the child support that Brazilian courts claim you owe for an abducted child you may not be able to even see.  The fact that the mother denies all visitation will not free you from paying her chalimony.  The US agencies will say that child support is "for the child" though they'll never try to verify how it's spent and will very rarely acknowledge that visitation with the father is also "for the child."

[Nicole's Dad]

How can anybody ever expect anything positive to happen if all that comes out of your mouth is nothing but negative words. What other choices do you have Simon? You are down to your last option. You need to do what you think is right for Noan. Prove up your income with the Brazilians. Pay the damn child support as long as it's reasonable and fair if that will get you your son back with his father. The only option you have for enforcement is a search and seizure order. The US Government will not help you with the application if you treat them like animals. It is nothing more than a job to them. It's personal for you. Not them. The only help I got from them was pushing paper.

Yeah your ex and the Brazilians have the prize. Your son. So what. They cannot and never will be able to change the fact that you are his father. The ONLY one he has and the only one he will ever have. Makew the concessions Simon. It's either give her full custody with your rights for visitation in the US and Brazil, give the courts jurisdiction over the case, give up the habitual residence from the US to Brazil, pay reasonable child support that you can afford, pay for his flights back and forth or risk not seeing him at all. Bind yourself legally to return him every time he comes for a visit. You have zero power to do anything right now until you show them you are willing to make concessions. It's like any other negotiation. You either make the concessions and get the other party on board or you remain selfish and hard headed and walk away with nothing.

And one last thing. Stop listening and reading all the negative crap people are saying. Proverbs 23:7 says: For as he thinks in his heart, so is he. In other words, if you think negative and speak negative, you are assured negative results to anything. You have to think positively. They know absolutely nothing about your case and your situation. Have faith. Hebrews 11:1 says: Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. You must have faith and start believing that it will happen. Will it to happen through your faith in a higher power than yourself and sell out to it.

[SageDad]

How can anybody ever expect anything positive to happen if all that comes out of your mouth is nothing but negative words.

...

John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."  There's a not so fine line between being negative and being realistic.  I like the reality of the situation no better than you do but pretending it doesn't exist, rather than accurately assessing it, is not an effective strategy in my opinion.   If I took the advice you like to give and made a "concession" such as agreeing to my wife having sole custody in Mexico (which is more of a complete abdication and abasement than it is a concession) my son's mother would probably, and happily, never let me see my son again.  Hell hath no fury like a woman spurned.  Contrary to what you seem to imply, I am not bitter and the only anger I hold is against the Mexican judicial system and US authorities.  I trusted my wife.  She had an affair and stole my son and has done nothing to keep me a part of his life.  I get no pictures, phone calls, emails, news, nothing.  Yet I should sign away my rights and put my faith in God to somehow fix the fact I failed to use the reasoning skills he gave me and appreciate the fact that past performance is indicative of future results?  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.  There's also a not so fine line between refusing to trust my wife, in most anything, but especially in the most important of things, and being angry and bitter.

[Nicole's Dad]

All I will say is that my experience and my approach worked for me and why couldn't it work for somebody else. You don't want to concede to anything, then don't. It's you and your son's life. I could have kept going but I seen something different.

And as far as the truth is concerned, James 1:20 is clear. "For the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God". Psalm 145:8 The Lord is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

By no means am I trying to boast my knowledge about the scriptures but it is clear what it says in just these three verses. There are numerous verses on anger and what it prevents you from receiving. That is the truth he is talking about when he says "The truth shall set you free". The scriptures. Not us. When we shy away from selfishness and become more selfless, he sees it. Good luck to you. I do genuinely and sincerely hope and pray Carlos that you get positive results from your approach. As always, I am here to help in anyway I can.

[NoansDad]

Carlos and Marty, I can see where you both come from very clearly and you are both right. The problem is the fact that the women at the other end are very different. Carlos and I have women who are happy to cut us out completely and have no interest in their son having a father. Your wife and Tim Weinsteins wife have both allowed you access to your children in the child's best interests even as you fought to have them return.

My ex-wife as Carlos's as well, is salivating for a chance to get me thrown in jail and locked up simply to justify to herself that she is right and never wrong. That is why the law is such a failure. The result you have had should be the result whether the mother is capable of  reasonable thought  as yours is and if they are pyscho's like Carlos's and my wife.

I literally let my wife leave for the fear that she would harm my son and then state that "I had made her do it, it is my fault" that is how sick she is.  My wife left me broke and took $500,000 from me to make  the life of her mother and family better. I will not pay child support reasonable or otherwise until I have fair settlement of that funds. That is grossly unjust, no two ways about it, I have to be able to live to be able to retire and support myself and I am starting over at 42 after already years of sacrifice. It does my son no good for his Dad to be bled dry and I am willing to pay child support as long as I actually get the access I expect and I get fair division of my property first. That is fair. That is all I want. Something that is fair.

[SageDad]

All I will say is that my experience and my approach worked for me and why couldn't it work for somebody else. You don't want to concede to anything, then don't. It's you and your son's life. I could have kept going but I seen something different.

And as far as the truth is concerned, James 1:20 is clear. "For the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God". Psalm 145:8 The Lord is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

By no means am I trying to boast my knowledge about the scriptures but it is clear what it says in just these three verses. There are numerous verses on anger and what it prevents you from receiving. That is the truth he is talking about when he says "The truth shall set you free". The scriptures. Not us. When we shy away from selfishness and become more selfless, he sees it. Good luck to you. I do genuinely and sincerely hope and pray Carlos that you get positive results from your approach. As always, I am here to help in anyway I can.

I don't doubt your intentions or your sincerity at all and I'm very glad to see you and Nicole together in the US.  Maybe it is me being negative but ever since you got the courts to grant you visitation in the USA I wondered if it would actually happen.  Would the mother actually do what she said she'd do and what the court ordered her to do?  Would the court do anything if she didn't?  For me it fundamentally comes down to whether or not someone can trust the abductor.  I can very much appreciate the fact that, post-abduction, there are trust issues on both sides.  The parent left behind generally has very good reason to doubt the integrity of the abductor, but the abductor also has to ask themselves if the LBP will seek revenge, try re-abducting the children, try to put them in jail or try to cut them out of their child's live if they ever get the chance to.

Indeed I've long said that the act of abduction destroys all trust on BOTH sides.  It doesn't take long for the abductor to see the pain and torment they've caused the LBP (assuming they were selfish enough to not have thought about that before the abduction.)  This is a big reason I have very little confidence or regard for mediation in these cases, especially forced/mandatory mediation in noncompliant countries.  Mediation requires that both parties have some basic level of trust (in the other party and the enforceability of the mediated agreement) and both parties having something the other one wants.  Otherwise it's just another way to waste time and money.

But once a child is in a noncompliant country what does the LBP have that the abductor wants?  The abductor, probably a woman, will likely get free legal aid and support and doesn't really need to be worried about a return order since their country is noncompliant.  Child Support is one thing they may want.  Except that, as family law generally stands in most of the West (and certainly in the USA) Child Support is NOT at all conditioned on the non-custodial parent being able to visit their child.  The abductor can deny all visits and the visitation orders are rarely enforced while the the Child Support is massively enforced by a gigantic industry of public and private agencies.  So again, what does the LBP have to negotiate with?  They have nothing but the hope that the abducting parent will somehow find it in their heart to do what is right for the children if not for the person they once said they loved.  This is certainly easier for the abductor to do once the LBP has given up on the Hague case, but it comes down to asking yourself, do you trust the abductor?  

In my case the answer is simple.  I trust the Hague Convention and Mexico's courts more than I trust my wife.  Pretty sad  statement I know, -- since I have virtually no confidence in the Hague Convention or Mexico's courts.

All that said, I don't doubt that what worked in your case can work in other cases.  In fact I'm sure it can, but it needs to be clear that what you are suggesting essentially comes down to trusting the abductor.  The chances of the US government or the authorities of a noncompliant country actually doing something about a violated visitation order, even one issued under the Hague Convention, are even less than the chances of getting an enforced return under the Hague Convention.

[tweinstein]

It does my son no good for his Dad to be bled dry and I am willing to pay child support as long as I actually get the access I expect and I get fair division of my property first. That is fair. That is all I want. Something that is fair.

At this point, Marty is doing better than me. I still need to go to Brazil to see my children. As for your comment, what is "fair" doesn't count for much. I understand what Marty is saying about cutting your losses in negotiations so that you can achieve your overall goal. One day, I hope to be able to be there myself.

[Nicole's Dad]

Carlos/Simon/Tim,

I do not trust my ex as far as I can throw her. Even after all that she has agreed to, I still don't trust her and probably never will. I will say this though but I am not going to live in fear of and try to predict what she may or may not do. What kind of person does that make me. 2 Timothy 1:7 says "For God has not given you a spirit of fear but of love, power and of a sound mind. I lean on scripture a lot to get me through the tough times. I do believe that she was worn out from me pursuing her with relentless effort and pulling every government agency from the east to the west in if I had too. Even if it was the Chinese government, I would do it.

Even though I gave her full custody, the exclusive right to designate the primamry residency of Nicole, change the habitual residence of Nicole to Brazil, I did not agree to pay any child support but I did agree to pay for Nicole's travel expenses. I also verbally agreed to provide financial assistance for Nicole in Brazil when I could. She is my child and I will take care of her. I can tell you that if she pushed for the child support, she would have probably gotten it.

I did not like any of this but I either agreed to it or my daughter would stay in Brazil until she was of age to be on her own. All I'm going to say is I did what I felt was right for my child. Not for anybody else. I did what I had to do. I talked to Nicole about it and she wanted it to be this way so I granted her wish against my own wishes. She is now happy living in Brazil and coming to visit with her father. I can also tell you that her mother and I are already talking about Nicole coming here to live and go to school for an undetermined length of time. Since how Nicole is starting that part of her life in becoming a woman, she does need to be with her mother during this period. Literally. At the end of the day, it's all about accepting the hand that has been dealt you and moving forward with your own life.

[BringJusticeHome]

So again, what does the LBP have to negotiate with?  They have nothing but the hope that the abducting parent will somehow find it in their heart to do what is right for the children if not for the person they once said they loved.  This is certainly easier for the abductor to do once the LBP has given up on the Hague case, but it comes down to asking yourself, do you trust the abductor?

This is the main reason I never pursued the Hague Convention. If any one was to have any compassion and feel bad for me I believed it will be my son's mother. I do not trust the American government so I'm dam sure not going to put my trust in the Brazilian government and let them choice my son's fate. The one thing that we can negotiate with is that we are and always will be the biological father's of our children. No one can ever take that away from us. And believe me when I tell you this I can guarantee you guys that every single one of you guys have and has more trust in your ex-wives then I do. You can PM and I will tell you why. For me the deciding factor in the hague convention was the return rate. Quite frankly there is no return rate. The hague convention, mixed with a country with no balls to enforce it (USA)  is useless. I knew once that I started the process with the Hague that their would be no going back from that. I knew it would piss my son's mother off to the point that she would never ever work with me. I sat back put my faith in God and hoped that one day my son's mother would come around.

Carlos made a great point about the trust issue on both sides.  I'll take it a step further and say no matter how we as the LBP's look at it, there's even far less trust on the abductors side then on our side. This may be hard to grasp but you have to look at it from an outsider and without emotion. These abductors have just done the worst thing possible that they could do to another parent. They could be very sorry for doing this but the fact is they have no idea what is in store, or what we as the LBP's are planning on doing. I'm sure they can put themselves in our situation and think that if it happened to them they would want revenge. I honestly believe that the abductors have far more trust issue's as us as LBP's. This is why in my case. I cant speak for others but in my case my son's mother was willing to come back to America. By not filing the Hague Convention I showed her that my intentions were not to number 1 take my son away from her and number 2 file criminal charges against her.

We as LBP's have to put ourselves in the abductor's shoes. When it comes down to it the LBP and the Abductor are no different then one another. We both are parents who are trying to make sure that our children are not kept away from us. From my view the Hague Convention is just a legal way of abducting our children. Im sure im going to get a lot of negative feed back for that, but hear me out. The hague convention is suppose to return the child to it's habitual residence. In some cases the abductor is not a citizen or has more ties in Brazil then in America. So a return granted from a hague convention very well could kept them from seeing their child. As screwed up and painful as it may be someone is going to have to bit the bullet and only see their child a few times a year, or whatever arrangements can be made possible.

I see where Nicolesdad is going by saying give them all out full custody. I agree with this in idea. I don't agree that you should give them full custody because in the end that is the only bargaining chip that we have. Once these abductors get full custody it's game over then and they control 100% of things. With us having whatever custody will have we still have something. You can PM and I can explain about this a bit more of what happened in my case. I will suggest tho dropping any charges and the Hague case. Us as the men as usual in life are going to have to be the bigger person and bit the bullet. You guys no more about the hague convention and how it does not work then I do. You guys have spent years with the Hague with no results. " The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results."

Again I can't speak for everyone's cases but for me not filing the hague convention was the thing that got my son back to America. These abductors are more scared then us, they know they did something wrong. They will be the ones who can be charged with something. So as screwed up as it may be it's going to come down to us as LBP's to gain their trust. It took me 3 years to full grasp this and actually start doing it and when I did my son was back in America in month's.

Do not forget the most important thing in all of these cases are our children. Not us as LBP's feelings or the Abductor's feelings. Sometimes you have to make it about the Abductors feelings, because they are to selfish to have it any other way. We must remain strong and do what is best for our children in the end tho. In my opinion what is best for our children is too have both parents actively involved in their lives..

[Nicole's Dad]

So again, what does the LBP have to negotiate with?  They have nothing but the hope that the abducting parent will somehow find it in their heart to do what is right for the children if not for the person they once said they loved.  This is certainly easier for the abductor to do once the LBP has given up on the Hague case, but it comes down to asking yourself, do you trust the abductor?

This is the main reason I never pursued the Hague Convention. If any one was to have any compassion and feel bad for me I believed it will be my son's mother. I do not trust the American government so I'm dam sure not going to put my trust in the Brazilian government and let them choice my son's fate. The one thing that we can negotiate with is that we are and always will be the biological father's of our children. No one can ever take that away from us. And believe me when I tell you this I can guarantee you guys that every single one of you guys have and has more trust in your ex-wives then I do. You can PM and I will tell you why. For me the deciding factor in the hague convention was the return rate. Quite frankly there is no return rate. The hague convention, mixed with a country with no balls to enforce it (USA)  is useless. I knew once that I started the process with the Hague that their would be no going back from that. I knew it would piss my son's mother off to the point that she would never ever work with me. I sat back put my faith in God and hoped that one day my son's mother would come around.

Carlos made a great point about the trust issue on both sides.  I'll take it a step further and say no matter how we as the LBP's look at it, there's even far less trust on the abductors side then on our side. This may be hard to grasp but you have to look at it from an outsider and without emotion. These abductors have just done the worst thing possible that they could do to another parent. They could be very sorry for doing this but the fact is they have no idea what is in store, or what we as the LBP's are planning on doing. I'm sure they can put themselves in our situation and think that if it happened to them they would want revenge. I honestly believe that the abductors have far more trust issue's as us as LBP's. This is why in my case. I cant speak for others but in my case my son's mother was willing to come back to America. By not filing the Hague Convention I showed her that my intentions were not to number 1 take my son away from her and number 2 file criminal charges against her.

We as LBP's have to put ourselves in the abductor's shoes. When it comes down to it the LBP and the Abductor are no different then one another. We both are parents who are trying to make sure that our children are not kept away from us. From my view the Hague Convention is just a legal way of abducting our children. Im sure im going to get a lot of negative feed back for that, but hear me out. The hague convention is suppose to return the child to it's habitual residence. In some cases the abductor is not a citizen or has more ties in Brazil then in America. So a return granted from a hague convention very well could kept them from seeing their child. As screwed up and painful as it may be someone is going to have to bit the bullet and only see their child a few times a year, or whatever arrangements can be made possible.

I see where Nicolesdad is going by saying give them all out full custody. I agree with this in idea. I don't agree that you should give them full custody because in the end that is the only bargaining chip that we have. Once these abductors get full custody it's game over then and they control 100% of things. With us having whatever custody will have we still have something. You can PM and I can explain about this a bit more of what happened in my case. I will suggest tho dropping any charges and the Hague case. Us as the men as usual in life are going to have to be the bigger person and bit the bullet. You guys no more about the hague convention and how it does not work then I do. You guys have spent years with the Hague with no results. " The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results."

Again I can't speak for everyone's cases but for me not filing the hague convention was the thing that got my son back to America. These abductors are more scared then us, they know they did something wrong. They will be the ones who can be charged with something. So as screwed up as it may be it's going to come down to us as LBP's to gain their trust. It took me 3 years to full grasp this and actually start doing it and when I did my son was back in America in month's.

Do not forget the most important thing in all of these cases are our children. Not us as LBP's feelings or the Abductor's feelings. Sometimes you have to make it about the Abductors feelings, because they are to selfish to have it any other way. We must remain strong and do what is best for our children in the end tho. In my opinion what is best for our children is too have both parents actively involved in their lives..

Well said and well put together. Being reasonable and fair is where we all must end up because it is ALL about the children. Not ourselves.

[StrngConviction]

SORRY , I GET THE POINT THAT AN LBP WOULD DO ANYTHING TO GET TO SEE THEIR CHILD AND HONOR THAT CHOICE . BUT I WOULDNT PISS ON THE ABDUCTOR OF MY SON IF SHE WERE ON FIRE AND SURE DONT THINK SHE NEEDS OR DESERVES FULL CUSTODY OF MY SON OR ANY CHILD INCLUDING THOSE SHE WOULD DECIDE TO GIVE BIRTH TO LATER .SHE HAS ABDUCTED HIM ,PUT HIM IN A HOUSEHOLD SHE KNEW UTILISED HEROIN AND METH WHILE DOING THESE DRUGS HERSELF , KEEPS BRAINWASHING HIM THAT IM THE CAUSE OF THEIR PROBLEMS WHILE SHE PUTS HIM IN HARMS WAY AND THAN  RESIDES IN HOMELESS SHELTERS/HALFWAY HOUSES AND GOVERMENT HOUSING BECAUSE SHES TO DRUGGED UP, BATTERED OR ABUSED BY HER  HUSBAND OR BOYFRIEND AT THE TIME, OR  TO LAZY TO WORK. AND IRELAND COULD BURN LIKE HELL ITSELF FOR ALL I CARE.

With that said and noting that every case is different; I refuse to reduce myself to an abductors level and give up on my Son by negotiating his welfare with a criminal that would shield OR hide their drug use and hostile lifestyle with children, and even worse, MY CHILDREN!  The sad part is my Son now thinks I am the bad guy for it . The good thing about it, I will hear it read from the book of life when i go to Heaven to meet my maker and it will read I NEVER  gave up on my Son or his Welfare, even in the diversity of looking the fool and losing his ignorant youthful trust. She will be the one to live with this NOT ME.

AND AS FAR AS HOPING THAT THE ABDUCTOR WILL FIND ANYTHING IN THEIR HEART TO APPEASE US? SERIOUSLY? I MEAN .... SERIOUSLY? THESE PEOPLE ARE EVIL , PERIOD. WOULD YOU EXPECT A RABID DOG TO PLAY HARMLESSLY WITH YOUR CHILDREN?

Again , I do realise every case is different and Noans case is the exception, I sure wished mine was . Mine is like a nightmare even Alfred Hitchcock could not compose. I have almost gone over the edge over this and the sad part is i have to stop coming on here for the most part because it takes me further into a depression that I am fighting so hard to stay out of just to run my day to day responsibilities. May God Bless you all and sorry for my Ranting....

[StrngConviction]

Went to church today and asked my pastor how do I forgive so I can heal when I am in the middle of the storm and told him of my ranting below. I can only appologise to the person who started this thread , its not to rant on like a lunatic which seems I am at times . With the help of my pastor I learned I am human and in my human nature I find myself not able to forgive right now , but I will continue to pray that the Good Lord help me hold my tongue because  it's ranting only brings more grief upon myself and others that seek serenity here and allows the devil to work . I wish noone harm, not Ireland , not Elizabeth ( the abductor ) NOONE .  Again I am sorry to everyone reading this.