Walking On Egg Shells

[SageDad]

It's unfortunate that moderators are closing some of the important threads on BSH because there are disagreements between members in them.  Though probably well-intentioned I think it is a mistake.  If we are serious about bringing America's stolen children home (and we are) we are doing a disservice to our cause by shying away from important but contentious issues.  We are not a homogenous group.  We come from all walks of life but are united by the over-arching belief that the international abduction of children is wrong and that there are critical failures in addressing this growing problem.  If we cannot agree to disagree without shutting down discussions how can we expect our own Congress to discuss this or for diplomats from different countries to do so?  While I agree that partisan politics should be left out, I profoundly disagree that politics be left out altogether.  To me that sounds more like a pretext for leaving out the politics we don't agree with.  We are talking international law.  Saying lets leave out the politics is like saying lets talk about evolution but leave out all that science stuff.  The international abduction of American children is a non-partisan issue.  There is no pro-abduction lobby or party.  There are only individual politicians that are doing their part to further this cause and those that are not.  That's it.  If we are so thin-skinned that we cannot bear to read the opinions of people who disagree with us, what does that say about our commitment to solving this problem?


A case in point is the thread:

http://bringseanhome.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1797

Which turned to a discussion of issuing travel advisories and/or warnings to parents at risk of having their children abducted to foreign countries and was closed because it was the opinion of some that it was not constructive or at least not a panacea.

[heatheram29]

Carlos, with all due respect (REALLY!), maybe we're all just tired of hearing the same people having the same arguments over and over again. I started that thread to get away from it.
 
I'm TIRED, and the only thing I'm interested in hearing about is ACTION.
 
JUDGES >>> RULING  >>> DATE??? >>> AIRPLANE

[SageDad]

Carlos, with all due respect (REALLY!), maybe we're all just tired of hearing the same people having the same arguments over and over again. I started that thread to get away from it.
 
I'm TIRED, and the only thing I'm interested in hearing about is ACTION.
 
JUDGES >>> RULING  >>> DATE??? >>> AIRPLANE

Believe me, I understand the original intent of the thread much better than you might think, but it's common for the topic of discussion to evolve and I don't think that what it turned into, and was closed for, was something that had been debated over and over again by anyone, much less the same people.  I have a profound belief that not enough is being done to educate the American people about this problem (and to be clear my definition of this problem is not limited to Sean, Brazil, Sage or Mexico) and especially the people most at risk for being placed in the same situation that David and I are in.  I think warning at risk parents would be a trivially easy way to alleviate some of this problem.  Is it a panacea?  Of course not, but lets not kid ourselves, neither is HR 2702.  Issuing warnings was criticized for not putting an end to international abductions and potentially hurting some people's feelings.  If that is the standard we measure its efficacy by then no measure will ever be suitable (for implementation or discussion apparently).  A determined abductor will always find a way to abduct a child, but most abductors are not single-minded people manaically focused on abducting their children.  They do it because it is easy,  because their are no safeguards in place to prevent it, and it has a very high probability of success..  Why go through a messy expensive custody hearing in the US (where you might lose) when you can just leave the country and win full custody?  Abducting a child is a cheap and easy way to win custody for lazy (and selfish) people from non-compliant countries.  If we can even make it marginally more difficult many abductions would be avoided altogether.

More to the point though there are times when the members of BSH are going to disagree and those disagreements do not "give ammo to the dark side".  I feel like an important discussion was cut short because there was a disagreement amongst members about what the best course of action was.  For what it's worth I'll state that I'm biased against almost any form of censorship, but I understand the concerns that the moderators are trying to address and recognize that it is not an easy balance to strike and think that they generally do a commendable job (that they aren't paid for).  It is not my intent to criticize them for the sake of doing so, but rather to gently nudge them in what I feel is the right direction.

[M.Capestro]

Trying to Please Everyone

by Louis Herrey
 
“I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.”
Bill Cosby
 
This is a tricky quote. If you read it word for word it’s not telling the whole truth, is it? I think we all agree that there can be more causes to failure. In and of itself, trying to please everyone is not a bad thing.
 
But the point I think Bill Cosby is trying to make is that trying to please everyone is a road that will sooner or later make you feel 1) really bad, and/or 2) really stressed. Why? Because it cannot be done. So there’s where the failure come in.
 
A serious problem with trying to please everyone is that you might be forced to abandon you ideals. Not everyone will share your ethics and morals. Stooping down, as it were, from the bar you’ve raised for yourself just to make someone else happy will only makes you unhappy. In other words, there will always be a price to pay when trying to please everyone.
 
What then, should we stop trying to please each other? Not at all! On the contrary, we must do all we can for each other. It should be our goal to please everyone. The problems and the stress begin, however, when we start to measure the success of this goal by counting how many are pleased – or rather, are not pleased – with what we have accomplished.
 
Before God and man you can only do your best. That’s it. Period. And if your best is not good enough for some people, bluntly speaking: that’s their problem. You’ve done what you can. It’s neither right nor fair that you should punish yourself for something you can’t control.
 
I know what I’m talking about. In large parts I am this person I am describing. But I have decided not to waste more time and energy (cause I have none to spare) in feeling bad because I can’t make everyone happy. Coming to terms, accepting things as they really are, really helps. I just had to let go of the wishful thinking. But what I kept was the promise that I know we all can pledge to: that we always treat our fellow men with respect and kindness. That must be our gift.
 
Now the thing with gifts, once you give them away you never know if the receiver will be pleased. Does that mean you refrain from giving? No, you hand them over anyway, because it’s your duty. If your gift is well received, wonderful! If not, you’ve still done a wonderful thing, and you will be blessed for it. The one who looses is not you, but the receiver. Just be happy that you’ve done the right thing.
 
Be happy also for this great truth:
 
Although you can’t please everyone, you can always please SOMEONE.
 
That’s reality. And that’s something to rejoice about.

[SageDad]

“I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.”

It's a good quote.  I'm also a fan of quotations.  It's impossible to please everyone and trying to do so will almost invariably lead to not really pleasing anyone, including oneself, but it's important to ask ourselves how we define success and failure.  I can only speak for myself, but I define success here as doing what's best for left behind parents and their missing children, both present and future.  It is a cause that was forcefully branded onto my soul.  If it hadn't happened to me I would not be here and I lack the words to describe the respect I have for all the BSH members that have come here without having to learn about this gross injustice in such a personal way.  They are better persons than I.  Not hurting the feelings of people in general, while important, is a very distant secondary objective.  While I can appreciate that hurting the feelings of our very supporters can have a detrimental effect on my primary goal, I feel that, given a chance to respond in the above referenced thread, I might have been able to persuade some of those supporters to see the importance of warning at risk parents without hurting their feelings.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

-Margaret Mead

[ChristineS]

Carlos,
This is a free country (although a moderated forum), and you can certainly have a chance to respond.  I know the thread was closed because it went off topic and became counter-productive (and a tad combative!), but try putting a different spin on the title/subject and see where it goes.  
Just my two cents..

[Teena]

I won't pretend to know what happened in that particular thread as I haven't been on much but in defense of the moderators, please understand carlos that our "job" is not easy. We make mistakes sometimes. And sometimes what others think was a mistake is actually the right thing to do. It gets tricky but all in all we try to keep everyones focus in the right direction. Like I said, I don't know what happened in that particular thread but I do know a lot of the time we go off on a tangent in a thread that although may be enlightening, interesting etc., it isn't going to get the kids home. Also, yes it is ok for people to disagree but speaking for myself, as a moderator, I can just see a really bad arguement coming so I try to stop it before it happens. Sometimes people say things they don't mean (or things they mean but shouldn't say) in the heat of the moment and it often causes us to lose supporters. This is just my perspective on the "closing threads" thing. No one needs to walk on egg shells. No one has been banned for things like disagreeing, argueing etc.

[dmdaven2]

“I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.”
 
It's a good quote. I'm also a fan of quotations. It's impossible to please everyone and trying to do so will almost invariably lead to not really pleasing anyone, including oneself, but it's important to ask ourselves how we define success and failure. I can only speak for myself, but I define success here as doing what's best for left behind parents and their missing children, both present and future. It is a cause that was forcefully branded onto my soul. If it hadn't happened to me I would not be here and I lack the words to describe the respect I have for all the BSH members that have come here without having to learn about this gross injustice in such a personal way. They are better persons than I. Not hurting the feelings of people in general, while important, is a very distant secondary objective. While I can appreciate that hurting the feelings of our very supporters can have a detrimental effect on my primary goal, I feel that, given a chance to respond in the above referenced thread, I might have been able to persuade some of those supporters to see the importance of warning at risk parents without hurting their feelings.
 
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
 
-Margaret Mead

I don't understand how non-LBP are sensoring LBP...like...our knowledge, and experience with abductions provides some sort of credibility on the subject, why sensor the truth and perspective of a LBP? :nixweiss:

[tstravis]

carlos - i have to say, i am with you 1000% on this one... one of the things i actually like about the forum (most of the time) is that people with different perspectives can bring something up you haven't thought about before... but lo-and-behold, then it offends someone else, and if the other person responds..it is "giving ammo to the dark side" or whatever... i think it is more important to have a give-and-take discussion about IMPORTANT ISSUES (in this particular case it was some type of parental warning system when children were traveling to a noncompliant country)..and not worry about what "the dark side" thinks.  and i agree about the politics too, i don't post about politics, but to leave that out of a problem like this is a little absurd... just my 2 pennies

[SageDad]

I don't understand how non-LBP are sensoring LBP...like...our knowledge, and experience with abductions provides some sort of credibility on the subject, why sensor the truth and perspective of a LBP? :nixweiss:

It's funny how the very thing that makes us experts on the subject of international parental abduction also makes us too biased to be able to think rationally about it.  Or at least that's how some people view the opinions of LBP's, specifically the State Dept. who will always exclude LBP's on discussions of the Hague Convention and decline to attend events where LBP's are in attendance.

[tstravis]

and also i meant to add... i don't really think that because the discussion veered off the original thread topic to something a little controversial is a bad thing... isn't that what happens in real-life discussions sometimes too?

[Bill33]

Frankly, I feel the real pain these left behind parents feel FAR outweighs any feelings of offence felt by those who probably are not losing sleep over some ideas that are written in a forum.

[SageDad]

Was trying to respond in the thread about Pete Rose and Obama only to find it was deleted.  This is very frustrating, even more so than locking the thread.  A lot of people put their time, effort and thoughts into that thread, myself included, only to see it deleted in what appears to be a knee-jerk reaction to avoid offending anyone.  Some consideration should be put into whether deleting posts and threads also offends people.  I honestly didn't see anything in there that any reasonable person should take offense at.  I care about the issue of international child abduction and bringing Sean home as much or more than most, but realistically I come here everyday to read, discuss and debate this issue with others that are passionate about it and try to share my opinions on it, which I have gained at tremendous personal cost, study and reflection.  If that discussion and debate needs to be sanitized and sterilized in such a way that it offends no one I'm afraid it will also interest no one after a couple days.  I'm also afraid that in the future I will think twice about taking my time to write on this issue here for fear that my efforts will be deleted when they offend thin-skinned supporters  whose dedication to this cause is so minimal that they would run away at the first indication that we are not a homogenous group of supporters marching in lock step with each other on every single issue.  Which may in fact be exactly the result that some hope to achieve, in which case, mission accomplished.

-
Carlos Bermudez
justiceforsage@gmail.com


For what it's worth here is the response I tried to post in the deleted thread:

Because Mexico is weak...and definitely can't afford to impose any sanctions on the United States
 
The better the US does, the better Mexico does...along with many other countries...

Not sure I follow.  If Mexico can't afford to impose sanctions, why are they doing exactly that?  What does being weak or doing better have to do with the original claim that treaties that don't explicitly state consequences can only be talked about?  

Don't kid yourself, Mexico and the US have more ties between their economies than either country would care to admit.  The US is much more dependent on Mexico than it is on Brazil and vice versa.  Mexico is a massive provider of cheap labor to US companies via both factories in Mexico and undocumented immigrants in the US.  After oil, remmitances sent from Mexican workers in the US are the largest source of income in the Mexican economy.  Imports and exports between Mexico and the US add up to nearly 400 billion per year.  That makes the 60 billion per year of trade w/ Brazil seem somewhat insignificant.  Aside from trade we are heavily dependent on Mexico to assist our drug czar continue to push our "war on drugs".  Mexico has a highly strategic location on our southern border as well as the the largest oil deposits in Latin America.

[dmdaven2]

Was trying to respond in the thread about Pete Rose and Obama only to find it was deleted. This is very frustrating, even more so than locking the thread. A lot of people put their time, effort and thoughts into that thread, myself included, only to see it deleted in what appears to be a knee-jerk reaction to avoid offending anyone. Some consideration should be put into whether deleting posts and threads also offends people. I honestly didn't see anything in there that any reasonable person should take offense at. I care about the issue of international child abduction and bringing Sean home as much or more than most, but realistically I come here everyday to read, discuss and debate this issue with others that are passionate about it and try to share my opinions on it, which I have gained at tremendous personal cost, study and reflection. If that discussion and debate needs to be sanitized and sterilized in such a way that it offends no one I'm afraid it will also interest no one after a couple days. I'm also afraid that in the future I will think twice about taking my time to write on this issue here for fear that my efforts will be deleted when they offend thin-skinned supporters whose dedication to this cause is so minimal that they would run away at the first indication that we are not a homogenous group of supporters marching in lock step with each other on every single issue. Which may in fact be exactly the result that some hope to achieve, in which case, mission accomplished.
 
-
Carlos Bermudez
justiceforsage@gmail.com
 
 
For what it's worth here is the response I tried to post in the deleted thread:
 
 
 
Not sure I follow. If Mexico can't afford to impose sanctions, why are they doing exactly that? What does being weak or doing better have to do with the original claim that treaties that don't explicitly state consequences can only be talked about?
 
Don't kid yourself, Mexico and the US have more ties between their economies than either country would care to admit. The US is much more dependent on Mexico than it is on Brazil and vice versa. Mexico is a massive provider of cheap labor to US companies via both factories in Mexico and undocumented immigrants in the US. After oil, remmitances sent from Mexican workers in the US are the largest source of income in the Mexican economy. Imports and exports between Mexico and the US add up to nearly 400 billion per year. That makes the 60 billion per year of trade w/ Brazil seem somewhat insignificant. Aside from trade we are heavily dependent on Mexico to assist our drug czar continue to push our "war on drugs". Mexico has a highly strategic location on our southern border as well as the the largest oil deposits in Latin America.

Right exaclty, however the US allows Mexican immigration as well...we provide jobs, labor, skilled work, and opportunity. They imposing sanctions or at least trying to...based off Trade..would be a battle they wouldn't want to begin. The Mexican Dream is to come to the US and be offered the opportunity to gain the American Dream...they and their Government know this...we also know we depend on Mexican immigration to sustain a cheap labor rate. We help eachother...Mexico does not have this relationship with any other country...hence...they are weak...cannot stand alone (unlike the US) and need our help. Just as the US WANTS their help but should Mexico want to pull away their offerings, the US will say fine and cut off ties with Mexico and increase dealings overseas, and where does that leave Mexico? Just like Brazil, a country that harbours child abductors and nothing much more.
 :nixweiss:

[dmdaven2]

As far as the delete, closing, of threads...who selects moderators? and how come the majority of moderators aren't even LBP? And why are they moderating the true feelings and thoughts of the LBP??
 
Either way, we'll all laugh about it one day while we're celebrating the return of Sean and all the other children...